President Clinton's grand jury testimony

Excerpts from President Clinton's videotaped Aug. 17 grand jury testimony:

(Prosecutors began by swearing in the president.) ...

CLINTON: I do.

QUESTION: And do you understand that because you've been sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, that if you were to lie or intentionally mislead the grand jury you could be prosecuted for perjury and/or obstruction of justice?

CLINTON: I believe that's correct ...

QUESTION: ... Mr. President, we are first going to turn to some of the details of your relationship with Monica Lewinsky that follow on your deposition that you provided in the Paula Jones case. ...

The questions are uncomfortable and I apologize for that in advance. ...

Mr. President, were you physically intimate with Monica Lewinsky?

CLINTON: Mr. Bittman, I think maybe I can save the - you and the grand jurors a lot of time if I read a statement which I think will make it clear what the nature of my relationship with Ms. Lewinsky was, how it related to the testimony I gave, what I was trying to do in that testimony. And I think it will perhaps make it possible for you to ask even more relevant questions from your point of view ... And with your permission, I'd like to read that statement.

UNKNOWN: Absolutely. Please, Mr. President.

CLINTON: When I was alone with Ms. Lewinsky on certain occasions in early 1996, and once in early 1997, I engaged in conduct that was wrong. These encounters did not consist of sexual intercourse. They did not constitute sexual relations, as I understood that term to be defined at my January 17th, 1998 deposition.

But they did involve inappropriate, intimate contact. These inappropriate encounters ended at my insistence in early 1997. I also had occasional telephone conversations with Ms. Lewinsky that included inappropriate sexual banter.

I regret that what began as a friendship came to include this conduct. And I take full responsibility for my actions. While I will provide the grand jury whatever other information I can, because of privacy considerations affecting my family, myself and others, and in an effort to preserve the dignity of the office I hold, this is all I will say about the specifics of these particular matters.

I will try to answer to the best of my ability other questions, including questions about my relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, questions about my understanding of the term of sexual relations, as I understood it to be defined at my Jan. 17, 1998, deposition, and questions concerning alleged subordination of perjury, obstruction of justice and intimidation of witnesses. ...

QUESTION: Did you understand the word in the first portion of the exhibit, Mr. President? That is for the purposes of this deposition, the person who engages in - quote, unquote - ''sexual relations'' that a person knowingly engages in or causes - did you understand - do you understand the words there in that phrase? ...

... CLINTON: I thought the definition included any activity by the person being deposed where the person was the actor and came in contact with those parts of the body with the purpose or intent of gratification, and excluded any other activity. For example, kissing's not covered by that, I don't think ...

... QUESTION: So if I can be clear, Mr. President, is it - was it your understanding back in January that definition ... only included consensual sexual activity?

CLINTON: ... My understanding was, when I was giving it to you, was that what was covered in those first two lines was any direct contact by the person being deposed with those parts of another person's body if the contact was done with an intent to arouse or gratify. That's what I believed it meant. ...

... QUESTION: So your definition of sexual relationship is intercourse only, is that correct?

CLINTON: No, not necessarily intercourse only, but it would include intercourse. I believe - I believe that the common understanding of the term, if you say two people are having a sexual relationship, most people believe that includes intercourse. So if that's what Ms. Lewinsky thought, then this is a truthful affidavit. ...

QUESTION: What else would sexual relationship include besides intercourse?

CLINTON: Well, that - I think - let me answer what I said before. I think most people when they use that term include sexual relationships and what other - whatever other sexual contact is involved in a particular relationship. But they think it includes intercourse as well. ...

... QUESTION: Judge Wright had ruled that the attorneys in the Jones case were permitted to ask you certain questions.

CLINTON: She certainly did, and they asked them, and I did my best to answer them. I'm just trying to tell you what my state of mind was.

QUESTION: Was it your responsibility to answer those questions truthfully, Mr. President?

CLINTON: It was. But it was not my responsibility, in the face of their repeated illegal leaking, it was not my responsibility to volunteer a lot of information. ...

I did not know that Linda Tripp had been involved in the preparation of this deposition or that all of...

QUESTION: Do you know that now?

CLINTON: No, I don't. I just know that - what I read in the papers about it. But I had no way of knowing that they would ask me all these detailed questions. I did the best I could to answer them.

QUESTION: Did you...

CLINTON: But in this deposition, Mr. Bittman, I was doing my best to be truthful. I was not trying to be particularly helpful to them. And I didn't think I had an obligation to be particularly helpful to them to further - when I knew that there was no evidence here of sexual harassment. And I knew what they wanted to do was to leak this even though it was unlawful to do so. ...

...QUESTION: Let me ask you, Mr. President, you indicate in your statement that you were alone with Ms. Lewinsky. Is that right?

CLINTON: Yes, sir.

QUESTION: How many times were you alone with Ms. Lewinsky?

CLINTON: Let me begin with the correct answer - I don't know for sure. But if you would like me to give an educated guess, I will do that. ...

QUESTION: How many times do you think?

CLINTON: ... Based on our records ... between February and December, it appears to me that at least I could have seen her approximately nine times. Although I do not believe I saw her quite that many times, at least it could have happened. ...

... I remember meeting her or having my first real conversation with her during the government shutdown in November of '95 ...

... And I am frankly quite sure - although I have no specific memory, I am quite sure - that there were a couple of more times, probably two times more, three times more. ... But I do not remember when they were or at what time of day they were or what the facts were.

Gifts

... QUESTION: Do you believe that Ms. Lewinsky was at the White House and saw you on Dec. 28, '97?

CLINTON: Yes, sir, I do.

QUESTION: And do you remember talking with Ms. Lewinsky about her subpoena to appear in the Paula Jones case on that day?

CLINTON: I remember talking with Ms. Lewinsky about her testimony or about the prospect that she might have to give testimony. ...

QUESTION: And you also gave her Christmas gifts - is that not correct, Mr. President?

CLINTON: Yes, that is correct. They were Christmas gifts and they were going-away gifts. She was moving to New York, taking a new job, starting a new life and I gave her some gifts. ...

QUESTION: You have given Ms. Lewinsky gifts on other occasions. Is that right, Mr. President?

CLINTON: Yes, I have.

Lewinsky testimony

... CLINTON: She raised the issue with me in the context of her desire to avoid testifying, which I certainly understood, not only because there were some embarrassing facts about our relationship that were inappropriate, but also because a whole lot of innocent people were being traumatized and dragged through the mud by these Jones lawyers with their dragnet strategy. ...

QUESTION: And you didn't want her to testify, did you? You didn't want her to disclose these embarrassing facts of this inappropriate, intimate relationship that you had? Is that correct?

CLINTON: Well, I did not want her to have to testify and go through that. ...

... QUESTION: Let me ask you about the meeting you had with Betty Currie at the White House on Sunday, Jan. 18, this year, the day after your deposition. First of all, you didn't - Mrs. Currie, your secretary of six or seven years, you never allowed her, did you, to watch whatever - whatever intimate activity you did with Ms. Lewinsky, did you?

CLINTON: No, sir, not to my knowledge ...

Perjury?

... QUESTION: Well, you're not telling our grand jurors that you think the case was a political case for a setup, Mr. President, that that would give you the right to commit perjury. ...

CLINTON: No, sir. ... Did I want this to come out? No. Was I embarrassed about it? Yes. Did I ask her to lie about it? No. Did I believe there could be a truthful affidavit? Absolutely. ...

QUESTION: You're not going back on your earlier statement that you understood you were sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the folks at that deposition, are you, Mr. President?

CLINTON: No, sir, but ... I will admit this, sir. My goal in this deposition was to be truthful, but not particularly helpful...

Sexual relations

... QUESTION: ... If you're wrong and it's within definition one, did you engage in sexual relations, under the definition, with Monica Lewinsky?

CLINTON: Mr. Wisenberg, I have said all along that I would say what I thought it meant, and you could infer that I didn't. This is an unusual question, but it's a slippery slope.

I - we can - I have tried to deal with some very delicate areas here, and in one case, I've given you a very forthright answer about what I thought was not within here.

All I can tell you is whatever I thought was covered - and I thought about this carefully. And let me just point out, this was uncomfortable for me. I had to acknowledge, because of this definition, that under this definition I had actually had sexual relations once with Gennifer Flowers, a person who had spread all kinds (of) ridiculous, dishonest, exaggerated stories about me for money. And I knew when I did that it would be leaked. It was. And I was embarrassed. But I did it...

QUESTION: As I understand your testimony, Mr. President, touching somebody's breast with the intent to arouse, with the intent to arouse or gratify sexual desire of any person, is covered. Kissing the breast is covered. Touching the genitalia is covered, correct?

DAVID KENDALL: In fairness, the witness said directly in each one of those cases.

QUESTION: Directly is covered, correct?

CLINTON: I believe it is. Yes, sir.

QUESTION: Oral sex, in your view, is not covered, correct?

CLINTON: If performed on the deponent.

QUESTION: Is not covered, correct?

CLINTON: That's my reading of this number one. ...

... CLINTON: I do not remember what I said to John Podesta....

... QUESTION: Well, let me ask you then. If you ... denied to him sex in any way, shape or form - kind of similar to what Mr. Bennett did at the deposition, including oral sex - wouldn't that have been a falsehood?

CLINTON: Now, Mr. Wisenberg, I told you, in response to a grand jury's question - you asked me did I believe that oral sex performed on the person who was being deposed was covered by that definition. And I said: No. ... Look, I'm not trying to be evasive here. I'm trying to protect my privacy, my family's privacy, and I'm trying to stick to with deposition was about...

Denial of Sexual Relationship

... QUESTION: Do you recall denying any sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky to the following people - Harry Thomason, Erskine Bowles, Harold Ickes, Mr. Podesta, Mr. Blumenthal, Mr. Jordan, Ms. Betty Currie? ...

...QUESTION: Do you recall denying any sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky to those individuals?

CLINTON: I recall telling a number of those people that ... either I didn't have an affair with Monica Lewinsky or I didn't have sex with her. And I believe, sir, that you will have to ask them what they thought. But I was using those terms in the normal way people use them...

... QUESTION: Did you... deny it to them or not, Mr. President?

CLINTON: ... I did not want to mislead my friends, but I wanted to find language where I could say that. I also, frankly, did not want to turn any of them into witnesses ... and sure enough, they all became witnesses ...

... QUESTION: I want to go over some questions again. I don't think you're going to answer them ... and so I don't need a lengthy response, just a yes or a no. ...

If Monica Lewinsky says that while you were in the Oval Office area you touched her breasts, would she be lying?

CLINTON: Let me say something about all this.

QUESTION: ... I want an answer under the previous grounds or to answer the question, you see, because we only have four hours and your answers have been extremely lengthy.

...QUESTION: The question is, if Monica Lewinsky says that while you were in the Oval Office area, you touched her breast, would she be lying?

CLINTON: That is not my recollection. My recollection is that I did not have sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky. And I'm staying on my former statement about that. ...

QUESTION: If she says that you kissed her breast, would she be lying?

CLINTON: I'm going to revert to my former statement.

QUESTION: OK. If Monica Lewinsky says that, while you were in the Oval Office area you touched her genitalia, would she be lying? ...

CLINTON: I will revert to my statement on that.

QUESTION: If Monica Lewinsky says that you used a cigar as a sexual aid with her in the Oval Office area, would she be lying? Yes, no, or won't answer?

CLINTON: I will revert to my former statement.

QUESTION: If Monica Lewinsky says that you had phone sex with her, would she be lying?

CLINTON: Well, that is - at least, in general terms, I think, is covered by my statement. I addressed that in my statement. ...

... QUESTION: Did you tell her anytime in December something to the effect: You know, you can always say that you were coming to see Betty or you were bringing me letters? Did you say that, or anything like that, in December '97 or January '98, to Monica Lewinsky?

CLINTON: Well, that's a very broad question. I do not recall saying anything like that in connection with her testimony. ... I certainly didn't want this to come out, if I could help it. And I was concerned about that. I was embarrassed about it. I knew it was wrong. And, you know, of course, I didn't want it to come out. ...

What Clinton told Lewinsky

QUESTION: Did you tell her to tell the truth?

CLINTON: Well, I think the implication was she would tell the truth. I've already told you that I felt strongly that she could issue, that she could execute an affidavit that would be factually truthful, that might get her out of having to testify. ...

... QUESTION: Do you agree with me that the statement, "I was never alone with her," is incorrect? You were alone with Monica Lewinsky, weren't you?

CLINTON: Well, again, it depends on how you define alone. Yes, we were alone from time to time, even during 1997, even when there was absolutely no improper contact occurring. Yes, that is accurate.

But, there were also a lot of times when, even though no one could see us, the doors were open to the halls, on both ends of the halls, people could hear. ...

QUESTION: (Ms. Currie) didn't know about ... your intimate, physically intimate relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, did she?

... CLINTON: I don't believe she did, no ...

...QUESTION: Mr. President, if there is a semen stain belonging to you on a dress of Ms. Lewinsky's, how would you explain that?

CLINTON: ... The main thing I can tell you is that doesn't affect the opening statement I made. The opening statement I made is that I had inappropriate intimate contact. ...

QUESTION: Is it possible or impossible that your semen is on a dress belonging to Ms. Lewinsky?

CLINTON: I have nothing to add to my statement about it, sir. You, know whether - you know what the facts are. There's no point in a hypothetical.

... CLINTON: I would say to the grand jury, put yourself in my position. This is not a typical grand jury testimony. I, I have to assume a report is going to Congress. There's a videotape being made of this, allegedly because only one member of the grand jury is absent. This is highly unusual. And, in addition to that, I have sustained a breathtaking number of leaks of grand jury proceedings.

And, so, I think I am right to answer all the questions about perjury, but not to say things which will be forever in the historic annals of the United States because of this unprecedented videotape and may be leaked at any time. I just think it's a mistake...

.... QUESTION: Well, the grand jury would like to know, Mr. President, why it is that you think that oral sex performed on you does not fall within the definition of sexual relations as used in this deposition.

CLINTON: Because that is - if the deponent is the person who has oral sex performed on him, then the contact is with - not with anything on that list, but with the lips of another person ...

... QUESTION: Mr. President among the many remaining questions of the grand jurors is ... the following: Did Monica Lewinsky perform oral sex on you? They would like a direct answer to that, yes or no?

CLINTON: ... since I believe - and I think any person, reasonable person would believe that that is not covered in the definition of sexual relations I was given - I'm not going to answer, except to refer to my statement.

I had intimate contact with her that was inappropriate. I do not believe any of the contacts I had with her violated the definition I was given. Therefore, I believe I did not do anything but testify truthfully on these matters.

... QUESTION: ... Were you sending some kind of a signal to (Monica Lewinsky) by wearing a tie she had given you on the day that she appeared in front of the grand jury?

CLINTON: No, sir. ... I don't remember ... her giving me this tie. And I had absolutely no thought of this in my mind when I wore it. ...

CLINTON: ... Most of my time and energy in the last five and a half years have been devoted to my job. Now, during that five and a half years, I have also had to contend with things no previous President has ever had to contend with: a lawsuit that was dismissed for lack of legal merit, but that cost me a fortune and was designed to embarrass me; this independent counsel inquiry, which has gone on a very long time and cost a great deal of money, and about which serious questions have been raised; and a number of other things.

And, during this whole time, I have tried as best I could to keep my mind on the job the American people gave me. ...

... QUESTION: Mr. President, the grand jury, I am notified, still has unanswered questions of you, and we appeal to you again to make yourself available to answer those questions. ...

... CLINTON: You know, Mr. Bennett, I wish I could do it. I wish the grand jurors had been allowed to come here today as we invited them to do. ...

MR. WISENBERG: Just for the record, the invitation to the grand jury was contingent upon us not videotaping, and we had to videotape because we have an absent grand juror. ...

MR. BITTMAN: Thank you, Mr. President.

09-22-98